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on this episode of skeptical whether

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you're talking about an Islamic

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fundamentalist or Christian

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fundamentalist the libertarian

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fundamentalists they all have a lot of

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the same structures well that's because

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they're all based on these cultish kind

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of precisely are extremely scary and

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until you know that's the part that I

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feel like is often missing from the

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public discourse is it's cultish folks

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we understand how mind control works we

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understand how different groups in our

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society are trying to manipulate other

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groups and some of those are in a

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religious kind of framework somewhere

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outside of that and some of them are

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somewhere in between like Scientology no

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one thinks Scientology is a religion

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religion clearly they're practicing all

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the same yes pushing the same buttons in

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terms of cultish practices it's wrong

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not even just because it's correct or

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incorrect

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you know corresponding to reality but

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because of the way it defends itself

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because of the way it perpetrates itself

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics as you know I have been

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pretty hard on atheists over the years

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and that's because I think in terms of

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the big-picture questions who are we why

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are we here the atheistic dogma that we

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usually hear leaves those folks on the

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outside looking in without much to

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really contribute to those interesting

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questions but on the other hand I am

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drawn to the atheist position in terms

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of these kind of outsiders who are

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willing to challenge the the religious

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existing dogma that still casts a huge

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shadow not only on our culture but on

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the personal lives of many many people

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so when I heard that today's guest david

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Fitzgerald prominent atheist and

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biblical scholar if you will i hate when

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people revolt when people say biblical

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scholar right these enough of biblical

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scholar for me but when I saw that he

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had a new book I was anxious to get him

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on it's taken a couple months in the

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making to make that happen and I know it

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kind of follows a bunch of other shows

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that I've done on Christianity but

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that's okay if that's just the way it

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came out I really enjoyed the

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opportunity to talk to Dave here is that

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interview today we welcome david

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Fitzgerald the skeptic Oh David is an

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atheist activist biblical history

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researcher and a very accomplished

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public speaker I do encourage you to

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check out some of us excellent

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YouTube presentations that you'll easily

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find if you search for his name Dave is

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also the author of several books

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including one that he's here to talk

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about today

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Jesus missing in action volumes one two

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and three it sounds a little daunting

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but it's really not and one more thing

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well I'm sure that Dave would appreciate

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you buying those three volumes on Amazon

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I have to mention that if you have

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Kindle unlimited like my wife does and I

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kind of Seifer off her account there you

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can actually read those books for free

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so Dave well

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come to skeptic oh thanks so much for

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joining me thanks for having me Alex so

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you were just chatting a minute ago but

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let me set this up for listeners skeptic

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cope is primarily a show about

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consciousness science but that has led

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us into looking at spirituality and

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controversial spirituality and Christian

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apologetics but since we've done a lot

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of that lately what I'm hoping we can do

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because I have a real live atheist

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activist on the show is not only talk

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about your excellent books and what you

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bring to those books which i think is

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really great because you have kind of a

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unique angle in a unique way of kind of

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talking about this stuff but I'm hoping

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we can also pull back a bit and talk

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about some of the bigger picture stuff

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surrounding atheism and it sounds like

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you're okay with that yes at least I

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will be until we start talking and who

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knows what will happen good great great

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so let's start with the basics you know

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your bio who you are tell folks a little

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bit about that and I'm let's talk about

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these really cool books gotcha okay well

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I began life as a very devout Southern

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Baptist and that was my that informed

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all my Christianity growing up and then

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this is certainly the super long story

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super short in my ecology era my college

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era in my college years I had a what I

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call a secular epiphany when this one

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girl who I used to flirt with by having

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theological arguments with asked me well

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Dave you know the Hindu religions like

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3,000 years older than Christianity and

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I thought for a minute and I was about

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to answer back and go no it's not all

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and I realized I had no idea whether

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Hinduism was all during Christianity or

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not at the time and it turns out it's

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quite older but that realization that I

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was about to say something I didn't know

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was true or not

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shook me to my core and people talk

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about how they lost their Christianity

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over you know got dragged kicking and

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screaming and incrementally went away

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from it I could

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the moment I was a Christian in the

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moment I was no longer Christian it was

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that realization that I was just

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parroting what I'd always been talked

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and I was no better than the job as

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witnesses in the Mormons I was always

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bagging about that's really cool that's

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a cool you know most people that there

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isn't that clarity but that's really

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awesome

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it's it's so funny because it just

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changed my whole outlook on the world

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and ironically I became so much more

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christ-like in my love for everybody in

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my acceptance of everybody once I gave

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up Christianity and so that was for the

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next 16 years that was me I was not

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quite an atheist activist yet I was on

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my way to becoming an atheist activist

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and around 2000 or so I read a terrific

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book by a guy named Ken Smith called

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Ken's guide to the Bible and it's it

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left me with all these great questions

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about who Jesus really wasn't what he

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really said because you get all these

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different pictures of who Jesus is when

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you read different Gospels and so long

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story short you know I wanted to parse

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out what was the real Jesus what he

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really said and what was just a

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legendary [\h__\h] that cut accumulated

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on afterwards and very long story very

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short the first thing that happened to

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me was all these red flags started going

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up as if to say you know this is all the

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evidence we have and this is the quality

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of that evidence and so about two years

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later I was thinking yeah I don't think

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this guy existed at all and that's how I

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became a myth assist and that's sort of

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where my troubles began because I wrote

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a book in 2010 called nailed and the

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subtitle was Tim Christian myths that

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show Jesus never existed at all and

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that's pretty much blown up in a way I'd

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never expected to I it's it's really

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fascinating to me that I'm still writing

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about Jesus mythos ism 15 years after

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reading that book 10 year you know

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almost 10 years after writing my first

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book but there's just so much to be said

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about it well there is there is a lot to

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be said about it and it is interesting

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too from a personal standpoint

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I wonder if you have any thoughts on

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this I mean you reached a point that I'm

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sure many many many people reach in the

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kind of the I was called the how can

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this be moment right so it's it's like

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okay I get the data I get that this

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Christian narrative just doesn't hold up

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and some real in that and that you know

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like so many people even go to seminary

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in are devout Christians but then they

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study and they go oh my god you mean all

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us insiders really know that yeah but

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then you took it this next step you

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couldn't let it go and I can definitely

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relate to that I mean that's me you're

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like no wait a minute I'm not just gonna

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pack this in and then just go on merrily

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with my life what is that about what

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does that say about you and and how do

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you understand that well it's funny I

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mean I blame my emergent Christianity in

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my formative years for a lot of things

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but one thing it did was it was

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constantly talking about defending the

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truth and the truth of the gospel uh-huh

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and the truth of Christianity and when

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you realize yeah that's not true it's

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like I didn't lose my my respect for the

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truth for the truth but now it's one of

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the things that drove me crazy made me

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want to write the book is doing the

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research for it you'd constantly come

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across Christians you know biblical

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scholars saying something that's

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completely diametrically opposed

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Christianity and then saying but of

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course there was a real Jesus I had blow

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the bubble and then backing away and

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touching the totem pole to make sure

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there everyone knows they're still on

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board and just seeing the mental

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gymnastics that they would go through to

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explain away these things that are

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obvious signs that were talking about a

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fictional character and allegorical

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character and that the Gospel writers

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will intentionally expected their

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audience to recognize that there were

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allegorical characters yeah and then so

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now you've again that book nailed was

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super well received very successful book

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now you've followed it up with this

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latest Jesus missing in action and I

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love the approach that you've taken with

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it but tell people you know what was

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what was calling you forward

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right in there

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sure when I wrote nailed it was just

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pointing out the top ten ways that the

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official story of Christianity just does

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not pass the reality test and I even had

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a chapter at the end saying can Jesus be

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saved where I talked about this is all

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the ways Christianity and early

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Christian history would have to be

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different for me to even be comfortable

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saying that there was an actually a guy

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named Jesus and I thought that was the

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end of it that's I think that all it had

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to be said but what really surprised me

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was how much blowback I got from certain

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atheist groups who were just convinced

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that not only yeah there was real Jesus

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but it's stupid to think there wasn't a

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Jesus it's it's insane and and for the

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longest time it bugged the hell out of

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me why I was getting such a vociferous I

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mean I did expect everyone to agree with

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me that's nothing special but the amount

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of hostility towards it doesn't really

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shock me until I figured out that they

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were taking all the red flags that they

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get from people who are anti-vaxxers

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from people who deny the moon landing

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happened climate change denial is all

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those red flags that went for them they

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had lumped in Jesus denial with that and

274
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:27,440
so I wrote missing-in-action mostly as a

275
00:11:32,139 --> 00:11:30,170
response to atheists it's not really

276
00:11:35,290 --> 00:11:32,149
meant to convert Christians because I

277
00:11:37,269 --> 00:11:35,300
don't think you know it's such this

278
00:11:39,069 --> 00:11:37,279
whole subject of Jesus mythos is emit

279
00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:39,079
such kryptonite for Christianity that

280
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:41,680
they can't even take a relaxed you know

281
00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:43,850
let's let's agree for the point of

282
00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:45,860
argument sort of standpoint they can't

283
00:11:50,139 --> 00:11:48,649
give an inch on this and hold on let's

284
00:11:51,639 --> 00:11:50,149
just let's just pull that apart for a

285
00:11:53,139 --> 00:11:51,649
minute because I thought that was an

286
00:11:56,019 --> 00:11:53,149
interesting point it comes on early in

287
00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:56,029
your book and I don't know I get where

288
00:12:00,340 --> 00:11:57,770
you're coming from and there's a

289
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:00,350
worldview gap that sometimes we can't

290
00:12:04,180 --> 00:12:02,480
jump like we're probably not going to be

291
00:12:06,850 --> 00:12:04,190
jumped being able to jump on climate

292
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:06,860
denier and vak stuff because I'm on the

293
00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:09,170
other side of that I think the data it's

294
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:11,270
just the data that I see just leads you

295
00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:12,890
completely the opposite direction but or

296
00:12:15,970 --> 00:12:14,600
maybe we won't be able to jump that gap

297
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:15,980
but we're not going to talk about it

298
00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:17,570
here because it's your other topic but

299
00:12:24,410 --> 00:12:20,740
here's the point anyone who goes through

300
00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:24,420
these kind of transformation

301
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:27,060
of thought these the the reason based

302
00:12:33,170 --> 00:12:30,450
logic based transformations has to start

303
00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:33,180
somewhere so I kind of think you know

304
00:12:38,329 --> 00:12:35,910
Jesus missing in action I think there's

305
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:38,339
a lot of Christians that will read it

306
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:41,279
maybe you know get mad at it and you

307
00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:42,720
know kind of throw it over in the corner

308
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:45,660
but well months later or a year later

309
00:12:50,540 --> 00:12:47,970
pick that up and it'll you know the

310
00:12:53,060 --> 00:12:50,550
Splinter of the mind thing will kind of

311
00:12:55,790 --> 00:12:53,070
stick there and go you know that is kind

312
00:12:57,769 --> 00:12:55,800
of true how do I get past that and I'll

313
00:13:00,319 --> 00:12:57,779
be honest with you I get stories back to

314
00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:00,329
me that that has happened there's a talk

315
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:01,769
I give on sex and violence in the Bible

316
00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:03,690
and a friend of mine said yeah I brought

317
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:05,310
two Christian friends of mine and they

318
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:06,959
spent the whole time during to talk with

319
00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:08,490
him and to give me the look of their

320
00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:10,260
mouths a gap and staring at the screen

321
00:13:13,550 --> 00:13:12,060
and then three days later she got a

322
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:13,560
email from them said they'd left their

323
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:16,050
church and so so I know these things do

324
00:13:20,810 --> 00:13:18,810
make an impact on Christians but I was

325
00:13:24,259 --> 00:13:20,820
aiming it towards my fellow atheists

326
00:13:25,879 --> 00:13:24,269
because you know that as you as you know

327
00:13:27,740 --> 00:13:25,889
I'm sure you know the Atheist community

328
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:27,750
is just as diverse as any other

329
00:13:32,449 --> 00:13:30,570
community out there it's not a

330
00:13:35,949 --> 00:13:32,459
monolithic block of anything any more

331
00:13:40,519 --> 00:13:35,959
than Christianity or Judaism or Islam is

332
00:13:42,860 --> 00:13:40,529
but I wanted to let them know that yeah

333
00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:42,870
we have good reasons for thinking that

334
00:13:48,259 --> 00:13:45,720
there was no Jesus whatsoever so we've

335
00:13:50,569 --> 00:13:48,269
talked about the the pushback that you

336
00:13:51,860 --> 00:13:50,579
got from atheists maybe let's even

337
00:13:54,410 --> 00:13:51,870
explore that a little bit further

338
00:13:57,740 --> 00:13:54,420
because I mean part of that is also an

339
00:13:59,689 --> 00:13:57,750
interesting kind of social phenomenon

340
00:14:02,720 --> 00:13:59,699
that you know we have to have an enemy

341
00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:02,730
you know and taking away our enemy you

342
00:14:06,079 --> 00:14:04,620
know we have all these I've built all

343
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:06,089
these good arguments for the

344
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,610
Thanksgiving table that I can use and

345
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:11,040
now I have to change yeah I think you're

346
00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:12,810
absolutely right and I remember going

347
00:14:16,340 --> 00:14:14,880
back to when I first you know wouldn't

348
00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:16,350
it occurred to me that I was questioning

349
00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:18,660
Jesus that shook me up just as much as

350
00:14:23,150 --> 00:14:20,790
losing my religion had 16 years before

351
00:14:26,059 --> 00:14:23,160
so I get how this is a tough sell for

352
00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:26,069
people I mean Here I am still talking

353
00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:26,430
about it

354
00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:28,230
you know what is it 17 18 years later

355
00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:31,560
and while we are talking about the

356
00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:33,660
pushback from atheist that some people

357
00:14:38,269 --> 00:14:35,880
might find surprising no one's gonna

358
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:38,279
find surprising the pushback from

359
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:41,279
Christiane's but i think what what some

360
00:14:47,210 --> 00:14:44,610
folks might not fully appreciate and i

361
00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:47,220
have a little taste of this is that how

362
00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:50,670
nasty that can be you know I still get

363
00:14:54,530 --> 00:14:52,889
tons of not tons as maybe an

364
00:14:57,650 --> 00:14:54,540
exaggeration I get plenty of email

365
00:15:00,110 --> 00:14:57,660
though from Christians just nasty stuff

366
00:15:06,259 --> 00:15:00,120
and nasty sometimes in just kind of a

367
00:15:08,869 --> 00:15:06,269
Christian loving kind of way you know

368
00:15:11,239 --> 00:15:08,879
you haven't found God and God is trying

369
00:15:13,819 --> 00:15:11,249
to call you you need to answer you know

370
00:15:16,819 --> 00:15:13,829
just very condescending [\h__\h] you

371
00:15:18,619 --> 00:15:16,829
know and it's like I I think it's easy

372
00:15:20,929 --> 00:15:18,629
for people especially on this show where

373
00:15:22,489 --> 00:15:20,939
I can bash atheists a lot for maybe some

374
00:15:25,759 --> 00:15:22,499
of the reasons we'll talk about later is

375
00:15:28,699 --> 00:15:25,769
to not appreciate how hard it still is

376
00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:28,709
to be an atheist in the United States

377
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,899
and particularly you know I live in

378
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:31,920
California I live in Southern California

379
00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:33,420
you live in San Francisco

380
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:36,600
I mean it's considerably easier exactly

381
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:40,800
considerably easier out here but for a

382
00:15:45,499 --> 00:15:43,050
lot of the flyover United States I mean

383
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:45,509
you they have no one to talk to

384
00:15:51,769 --> 00:15:47,730
yeah absolutely wonderful things about

385
00:15:53,179 --> 00:15:51,779
the internet is for atheists anyway not

386
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:53,189
only are you connected to every other

387
00:15:57,259 --> 00:15:54,930
atheist on the planet even if you're in

388
00:15:59,410 --> 00:15:57,269
the middle of snake handler Missouri you

389
00:16:01,730 --> 00:15:59,420
know in the reddest of the red states

390
00:16:04,129 --> 00:16:01,740
but you can fact check your preacher

391
00:16:07,819 --> 00:16:04,139
from the pulpit in real time it's like

392
00:16:10,490 --> 00:16:07,829
you know it's astounding how erosive and

393
00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:10,500
corrosive the the effect of all this

394
00:16:15,949 --> 00:16:12,720
information sharing is on all these

395
00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:15,959
traditional belief structures good and

396
00:16:21,769 --> 00:16:18,779
let's hit a couple of kind of high

397
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:21,779
points there on that topic of what it's

398
00:16:28,189 --> 00:16:25,170
like for personally on a personal level

399
00:16:32,199 --> 00:16:28,199
for people who maybe start having these

400
00:16:34,579 --> 00:16:32,209
doubts about the faith of their

401
00:16:37,220 --> 00:16:34,589
childhood the faith of your family

402
00:16:39,650 --> 00:16:37,230
tradition and because I think it's it's

403
00:16:41,210 --> 00:16:39,660
a real thing that that we have to kind

404
00:16:43,489 --> 00:16:41,220
of get out there to really understand

405
00:16:46,179 --> 00:16:43,499
where a lot of the Atheist community is

406
00:16:49,069 --> 00:16:46,189
coming from I mean there's a certain

407
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:49,079
reality I think to the claim that this

408
00:16:54,380 --> 00:16:51,360
is abuse that the

409
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:54,390
is abusive it's clearly coercive to take

410
00:16:59,360 --> 00:16:56,880
little kids and put them and you know

411
00:17:01,400 --> 00:16:59,370
scare them like I'm not personally I

412
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:01,410
mean raising a Greek Orthodox Church in

413
00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:04,650
Chicago and the intent was to scare the

414
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,260
crap out of you yeah scared the hell out

415
00:17:12,110 --> 00:17:10,079
of you literally yeah yeah so and that

416
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:12,120
still goes on and it we kind of gloss

417
00:17:15,169 --> 00:17:13,679
over it a little bit and think oh well

418
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:15,179
it does not really like that ya know

419
00:17:18,919 --> 00:17:16,770
it's really it's still like that a lot

420
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:18,929
of kids who still be a you know and

421
00:17:22,939 --> 00:17:20,250
that's not even getting into the whole

422
00:17:27,140 --> 00:17:22,949
Catholic pedophilia scandal it's like I

423
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:27,150
mean I as a Southern Baptist for me in a

424
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:29,330
lot of ways I had it really easy I had a

425
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:33,570
an extended family who loved me it was

426
00:17:37,549 --> 00:17:36,210
all our social network and I think

427
00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:37,559
there's a lot of Christians out there

428
00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:40,860
who are Christians for good rational

429
00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:42,660
true reasons that have absolutely

430
00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:44,580
nothing to do with Christianity being

431
00:17:51,980 --> 00:17:49,049
true or rational or good but again I was

432
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,990
one of the lucky ones I think and at the

433
00:17:54,260 --> 00:17:53,520
end of the day even that wasn't enough

434
00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:54,270
for me

435
00:17:58,580 --> 00:17:57,000
just knowing that it wasn't true was

436
00:18:01,039 --> 00:17:58,590
enough for me to say no like sorry I

437
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:01,049
can't sign off on this but there's so

438
00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:03,330
many people out there whose religion is

439
00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:06,900
a nightmare and as you say abusive

440
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:12,020
nightmare on on multiple levels you know

441
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:15,270
from from just telling them something

442
00:18:19,610 --> 00:18:17,510
that's not true

443
00:18:21,620 --> 00:18:19,620
inculcating that in generation after

444
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:21,630
generation after generation the

445
00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:25,110
judgmental nature of the idea that you

446
00:18:29,299 --> 00:18:27,270
have the one true faith and everybody

447
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:29,309
else you have to go out like Arnold

448
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:30,570
Schwarzenegger or the Terminator going

449
00:18:35,090 --> 00:18:32,970
save not say I'm saved not saved and and

450
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:35,100
homing in on them and judging everybody

451
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:36,960
by according to how much their belief

452
00:18:44,890 --> 00:18:39,570
structures match yours it's astounding

453
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:44,900
how how pervasively pernicious that is

454
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:47,490
pardon the alliteration but it's it

455
00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:50,970
changes your whole outlook on people and

456
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:52,140
of course they've done lots of studies

457
00:18:56,930 --> 00:18:54,960
about this about conservative people who

458
00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:56,940
are conservative politically and how

459
00:18:59,720 --> 00:18:58,770
whether you're talking about an Islamic

460
00:19:00,919 --> 00:18:59,730
fundamentalist or Christian

461
00:19:02,510 --> 00:19:00,929
fundamentalist of libertarian

462
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:02,520
fundamentalist they all have a lot of

463
00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:05,130
the same structures well that's

464
00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:07,470
they're all based on these cultish kind

465
00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:11,190
of precisely extremely scary and until

466
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:13,230
you know that's the part that I feel

467
00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:15,870
like is often missing from the public

468
00:19:22,340 --> 00:19:18,840
discourse is its cultish folks we

469
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:22,350
understand how mind control works we

470
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:25,440
understand how different groups in our

471
00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:27,570
society are trying to manipulate other

472
00:19:31,910 --> 00:19:29,220
groups and some of those are in a

473
00:19:33,470 --> 00:19:31,920
religious kind of framework some are

474
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:33,480
outside of that and some of them are

475
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:35,280
somewhere in between like Scientology no

476
00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:36,450
one thinks Scientology is a religion

477
00:19:41,690 --> 00:19:39,420
religion verily they're practicing all

478
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:41,700
the same yes pushing the same buttons in

479
00:19:48,140 --> 00:19:45,120
terms of cultish practices so I think

480
00:19:51,890 --> 00:19:48,150
until we fully dig into that and

481
00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:51,900
understand how fragile our psychological

482
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:54,840
makeup is and how easily we are

483
00:19:58,970 --> 00:19:56,730
manipulated all of us I mean it's just

484
00:20:01,490 --> 00:19:58,980
you know like we all look back at if

485
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:01,500
you're old enough like I am to look back

486
00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:03,510
at some old photos and see like the

487
00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:08,340
fashion you were wearing going why it's

488
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:09,780
a there's an element of that where

489
00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:11,700
you're just kind of following along

490
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:13,830
because it's kind of feels right and

491
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:14,700
feels good

492
00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:18,290
any thoughts on the cultish part of this

493
00:20:22,010 --> 00:20:20,220
well at mean you think you nailed it

494
00:20:24,590 --> 00:20:22,020
right on the head it's like it's it's

495
00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:24,600
it's wrong not even just because it's

496
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:27,540
you know wrong or right you know correct

497
00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:28,110
or incorrect

498
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:30,030
you know corresponding to reality but

499
00:20:34,790 --> 00:20:32,490
because of the way it defends itself

500
00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:34,800
because of the way it perpetrates itself

501
00:20:38,690 --> 00:20:36,630
Daniel Dennett has done a great book

502
00:20:40,970 --> 00:20:38,700
called breaking the spell where he talks

503
00:20:44,030 --> 00:20:40,980
about all these evolutionary survival

504
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:44,040
mechanisms that religions have co-opted

505
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:45,810
for their own use and it's fascinating

506
00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:49,410
to see how we're dancing with ghosts in

507
00:20:53,660 --> 00:20:51,320
all these many ways that were still

508
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:53,670
we're doing all these things that are

509
00:20:59,290 --> 00:20:55,530
meant to prop up this you know

510
00:21:02,090 --> 00:20:59,300
patriarchal authoritarian tribal group

511
00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:02,100
and here is in 21st century and we're

512
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:04,460
still acting like Neanderthals that way

513
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:09,120
yeah Daniel de Daniel den is an

514
00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:11,370
interesting figure as he pops up in this

515
00:21:16,430 --> 00:21:13,830
show a lot because Daniel Dennett has

516
00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:16,440
famously said that consciousness is an

517
00:21:20,490 --> 00:21:17,800
illusion

518
00:21:22,410 --> 00:21:20,500
which is a good lead-in I think some of

519
00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:22,420
the other stuff that I want to talk

520
00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:25,630
about so let me try and get there by

521
00:21:32,910 --> 00:21:29,790
saying you know atheism is cool and

522
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:32,920
important from a cultural social and

523
00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:35,530
just the truth-seeking finishing in all

524
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:37,470
the ways that you're talking about but

525
00:21:43,620 --> 00:21:41,290
but always I find kind of hard to

526
00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:43,630
resolve and I guess I pick and poke at

527
00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:45,340
atheists a little bit about this and

528
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:47,140
since you're an atheist activist and I

529
00:21:53,580 --> 00:21:49,570
have you here on the show that's good

530
00:21:57,140 --> 00:21:53,590
good question but you know the link

531
00:21:59,370 --> 00:21:57,150
between this debunking of religion and

532
00:22:02,460 --> 00:21:59,380
pulling back from the cult and

533
00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:02,470
deprogramming which I totally get right

534
00:22:07,170 --> 00:22:04,630
and then the link to this what I think

535
00:22:09,930 --> 00:22:07,180
is just kind of crazy scientific

536
00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:09,940
materialism epitomized by Daniel Dennett

537
00:22:13,890 --> 00:22:11,950
I mean consciousness is an illusion

538
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:13,900
that's a non-starter I mean no one

539
00:22:18,330 --> 00:22:15,010
thinks that anymore

540
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:18,340
that's like so outdated scientifically

541
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:20,770
even the you know Sam Harris who's kind

542
00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:22,450
of an interesting figure in the Atheist

543
00:22:26,430 --> 00:22:24,520
community because he's kind of on the

544
00:22:28,650 --> 00:22:26,440
fence on the consciousness thing but he

545
00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:28,660
always has been very anti religion and

546
00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:30,760
atheists don't know quite what to make

547
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:34,030
of them but even sam harris says gee you

548
00:22:38,850 --> 00:22:35,770
think dan really believes that because

549
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:38,860
it's just kind of a crazy idea and yet I

550
00:22:44,490 --> 00:22:40,840
see so many atheists who just

551
00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:44,500
dogmatically adhere to this scientific

552
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:47,620
materialism and all the implications of

553
00:22:51,950 --> 00:22:49,690
it and they're like science science

554
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:51,960
science without really digging into

555
00:22:56,910 --> 00:22:54,880
understanding what that means and what

556
00:22:58,410 --> 00:22:56,920
the implications are and I don't know

557
00:23:00,090 --> 00:22:58,420
how much you've looked into that or what

558
00:23:02,970 --> 00:23:00,100
thoughts you have on that but I'd sure

559
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:02,980
be interested to hear well for me you

560
00:23:06,990 --> 00:23:05,410
know if we're agreeing on what

561
00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:07,000
scientific materialism is and I think we

562
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:09,790
are I don't have a problem with it I

563
00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:12,820
don't have it doesn't narrow and

564
00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:15,580
restrict my of the cosmos and our place

565
00:23:21,870 --> 00:23:19,390
in it if anything it elevates it to to

566
00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:21,880
something that I feel like I can be

567
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:25,480
humble and proud at the same time just

568
00:23:29,010 --> 00:23:27,010
filled with the wonder of what we're

569
00:23:31,379 --> 00:23:29,020
able to accomplish what what life itself

570
00:23:33,690 --> 00:23:31,389
has been able to accomplish even though

571
00:23:36,209 --> 00:23:33,700
much of life is brutish and thug is

572
00:23:39,029 --> 00:23:36,219
short and horrible and cruel it doesn't

573
00:23:40,769 --> 00:23:39,039
have to be and people talk about living

574
00:23:43,619 --> 00:23:40,779
in a cold impersonal universe without

575
00:23:45,539 --> 00:23:43,629
love that's not true we are the love in

576
00:23:46,979 --> 00:23:45,549
the universe there is love in the

577
00:23:50,249 --> 00:23:46,989
universe because we have this

578
00:23:52,889 --> 00:23:50,259
consciousness even if as didn''t said

579
00:23:54,959 --> 00:23:52,899
our consciousness is our freewill is

580
00:23:58,049 --> 00:23:54,969
made up of teeny tiny robots you know I

581
00:24:01,139 --> 00:23:58,059
kind of love that expression yeah but

582
00:24:05,659 --> 00:24:01,149
it's a truth seeking thing Dave if it's

583
00:24:09,509 --> 00:24:05,669
not true it doesn't matter anymore

584
00:24:12,719 --> 00:24:09,519
consciousness is an illusion is not true

585
00:24:15,419 --> 00:24:12,729
it's been falsified over and over again

586
00:24:18,659 --> 00:24:15,429
and that's why I guess is the my gripe

587
00:24:20,789 --> 00:24:18,669
with atheists is it's it's more dogma so

588
00:24:22,979 --> 00:24:20,799
it's like no I can't let go of that idea

589
00:24:26,819 --> 00:24:22,989
because I've built all this other stuff

590
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:26,829
on it and it opens up the door to that

591
00:24:32,609 --> 00:24:30,129
the the implications of it are huge and

592
00:24:34,889 --> 00:24:32,619
they're scary in the same way that you

593
00:24:36,869 --> 00:24:34,899
know they don't like the Sam where Sam

594
00:24:40,379 --> 00:24:36,879
Harris is going and I'm not a Sam Harris

595
00:24:41,969 --> 00:24:40,389
fan at least saying Sam Harris is

596
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:41,979
someone who looks into it and says wow

597
00:24:46,499 --> 00:24:44,559
well you know I really can't put those

598
00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:46,509
boundaries on consciousness and

599
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:48,700
therefore I have to open up to their

600
00:24:56,369 --> 00:24:51,369
being the potential of their being some

601
00:24:58,079 --> 00:24:56,379
reality to more broadly spirituality but

602
00:25:01,529 --> 00:24:58,089
what we're really talking about is some

603
00:25:04,069 --> 00:25:01,539
kind of hierarchy to consciousness so

604
00:25:07,379 --> 00:25:04,079
you know the the brutish life and the

605
00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:07,389
Richard Dawkins biological robot stuff I

606
00:25:13,379 --> 00:25:09,940
mean that's [\h__\h] it's just not true

607
00:25:16,169 --> 00:25:13,389
true you know so that's my rub and I

608
00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:16,179
don't understand why atheists aren't

609
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:18,940
more interested in trying to wrestle

610
00:25:22,829 --> 00:25:21,039
that to the ground but in the same way

611
00:25:24,749 --> 00:25:22,839
that they see like Christians want to do

612
00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:24,759
they're just like no no no that's true

613
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:26,950
we can't really touch that let's just

614
00:25:31,379 --> 00:25:29,200
move on to the next topic well let me

615
00:25:33,329 --> 00:25:31,389
let me just respond very brief or that

616
00:25:35,639 --> 00:25:33,339
with the caveat that like is that

617
00:25:37,589 --> 00:25:35,649
atheism is just as diverse as anything

618
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:37,599
else on the planet so I don't pretend to

619
00:25:41,819 --> 00:25:40,089
be speaking for all of 80s and again

620
00:25:45,330 --> 00:25:41,829
it's not even a topic that I'm

621
00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:45,340
particularly into if you

622
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:48,760
I mean I have I haven't spent a lot of

623
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:52,990
thought on the question of consciousness

624
00:25:56,130 --> 00:25:54,850
and that's fair cuz let me just say

625
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:56,140
interject and say that's fair because

626
00:25:58,980 --> 00:25:57,730
I've read your writings and you really

627
00:26:02,610 --> 00:25:58,990
don't get into that so I don't want to

628
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:02,620
kind of yeah yeah it's like if we don't

629
00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:04,510
get back onto historical you know what

630
00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:06,070
really happened in the first century or

631
00:26:11,010 --> 00:26:08,500
the second century then you know my

632
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:11,020
usefulness to the discussion goes down

633
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:13,360
but I do have my own opinions you know

634
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:15,070
for sure

635
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:18,130
I don't know I'm certainly open to the

636
00:26:23,970 --> 00:26:20,710
idea of that there's more to

637
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:23,980
consciousness than we think and yet at

638
00:26:27,540 --> 00:26:26,110
the same time I'm perfectly comfortable

639
00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:27,550
with the idea that whatever

640
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:30,670
consciousness is it evolved naturally

641
00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:34,810
out of our brains our physical you know

642
00:26:42,030 --> 00:26:39,400
mental apparatus if you will and I just

643
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:42,040
don't have a problem with that for what

644
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:45,370
it's worth okay there and when I see

645
00:26:49,130 --> 00:26:47,530
weight and spirituality that that's a

646
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:49,140
placeholder for a lot of things I'm sure

647
00:26:53,910 --> 00:26:51,490
everything that goes under that big tent

648
00:26:56,970 --> 00:26:53,920
you don't hold with either and maybe

649
00:26:59,970 --> 00:26:56,980
maybe I'm just focusing my flashlight on

650
00:27:01,020 --> 00:26:59,980
the wrong corners but when I when I hear

651
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:01,030
people talk about things like

652
00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:03,250
spirituality and I get a little deeper

653
00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:04,750
into what they're talking about it seems

654
00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:06,550
like they're talking about perfectly

655
00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:10,440
natural things emotions things of ideas

656
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:13,180
even consciousness to me feels very

657
00:27:18,510 --> 00:27:16,690
natural so here's the central issue and

658
00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:18,520
we won't I won't pound on it too much

659
00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:19,900
because I think you're totally fair and

660
00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:22,420
saying you know this is something you've

661
00:27:26,790 --> 00:27:24,820
written extensively about or something

662
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:26,800
like that but here's the jumping-off

663
00:27:30,930 --> 00:27:28,510
point Daniel Dennett is the perfect

664
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:30,940
jumping-off point consciousness is an

665
00:27:35,550 --> 00:27:34,450
illusion that don't buy that and what he

666
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:35,560
what do you what's your takeaway from

667
00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:39,370
that well what he means by that is that

668
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:44,440
your sense of you the voice inside your

669
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:48,370
head if you will mm-hm is not real it's

670
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:51,310
something that's created by you but it's

671
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:54,640
merely an illusion so your sense of you

672
00:28:02,160 --> 00:27:58,090
being you is an illusion

673
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:02,170
and I mean so that's kind of goofy from

674
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:04,480
just to kind of you know you could ask a

675
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:06,370
7 year olds or an 8 year old they're

676
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:09,700
like no you know I I me I'm really in

677
00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:12,130
here and I assume you are you and you're

678
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:14,950
really in there and anything else is

679
00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:18,190
just kind of a ridiculousness that isn't

680
00:28:20,730 --> 00:28:19,990
even worth talking about me because

681
00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:20,740
there isn't any

682
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:25,920
but where it really breaks down is

683
00:28:32,190 --> 00:28:29,650
scientifically you know we know that

684
00:28:34,890 --> 00:28:32,200
that's not true because we've done a

685
00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:34,900
whole bunch of experiments looking at

686
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:37,000
consciousness and the most famous is the

687
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:39,310
you know the double slit experiment and

688
00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:41,440
this consciousness collapse the wave

689
00:28:47,870 --> 00:28:43,540
function and then there's all the all

690
00:28:50,550 --> 00:28:47,880
the stuff on mind brain and placebo and

691
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:50,560
meditation and mindfulness all that

692
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:53,290
stuff comes back again and again again

693
00:28:57,630 --> 00:28:55,270
to say that gee you know whatever

694
00:29:00,510 --> 00:28:57,640
consciousness is it's not an illusion so

695
00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:00,520
then they there's there's other places

696
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:03,640
that that all takes you but let me just

697
00:29:08,550 --> 00:29:06,370
jump in super fast and say I'm not I'm

698
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:08,560
not opposed to what you're saying I'm

699
00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:10,630
not close to what you're saying I just

700
00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:12,670
don't have enough information to confirm

701
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:14,350
or deny what you're saying at the moment

702
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:17,650
ok no fair enough so I was kind of

703
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:20,110
long-winded there but I'll come back is

704
00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:23,530
because where that leads is some really

705
00:29:29,550 --> 00:29:26,830
tricky parts for atheists that do kind

706
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:29,560
of directly attack the underpinnings of

707
00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:32,080
atheism and that's that ok there is this

708
00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:34,300
consciousness right it's not an illusion

709
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:35,980
so what are the limits of that

710
00:29:39,810 --> 00:29:38,110
consciousness when does it begin when

711
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:39,820
does it end does it end at biological

712
00:29:45,930 --> 00:29:43,570
death is it as you said an epiphenomena

713
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:45,940
of the brain is it just something that's

714
00:29:49,380 --> 00:29:47,890
created there or is consciousness some

715
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:49,390
kind of field that's out there that

716
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:51,520
we're tapping into those are all real

717
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:54,370
questions that consciousness researchers

718
00:29:59,160 --> 00:29:57,010
are trying to tackle and and science in

719
00:30:01,680 --> 00:29:59,170
general is trying to tackle in a number

720
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:01,690
of ways but one of the sets of data that

721
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:04,150
you get out of that is starts looking

722
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:07,330
like a lot of the religious wisdom

723
00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:09,730
traditions and that is that oh there is

724
00:30:14,669 --> 00:30:11,470
an order to this consciousness

725
00:30:17,789 --> 00:30:14,679
there does seem to be a hierarchy there

726
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:17,799
does seem to be a morality that's kind

727
00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:20,650
of built into this fabric of the

728
00:30:26,399 --> 00:30:23,320
universe that we never imagined was

729
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:26,409
there before and that's the real rub for

730
00:30:31,409 --> 00:30:28,240
atheists and I think that a lot of

731
00:30:33,210 --> 00:30:31,419
people who are pretty smart in the

732
00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:33,220
atheist community kind of see that

733
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:34,750
around the bend and they're trying to

734
00:30:40,049 --> 00:30:37,330
cut it off before people really get

735
00:30:42,659 --> 00:30:40,059
there and go no no no no don't go there

736
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:42,669
because I know where that leads and

737
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:45,520
they're just trying to backdoor religion

738
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:48,010
back in so all's I'm doing Davis try to

739
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:49,900
lay out that that is one of the door

740
00:30:55,740 --> 00:30:52,390
sure and I was gonna say just in

741
00:30:57,450 --> 00:30:55,750
response to that I don't know if I see

742
00:31:00,210 --> 00:30:57,460
that happening I definitely see all

743
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:00,220
kinds of fault lines in atheism that we

744
00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:03,370
are fighting about now and some of them

745
00:31:07,140 --> 00:31:04,750
are I think are more legitimate than

746
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:07,150
others I don't know if anyone's really

747
00:31:10,649 --> 00:31:09,490
slamming the back you know slamming the

748
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:10,659
door on that and saying all right let's

749
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:12,850
not even go there well III think it's

750
00:31:17,130 --> 00:31:15,250
chipped in the I've seen you know in the

751
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:17,140
last 10 years or so that there has been

752
00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:19,770
a retreat from that kind of strict

753
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:23,380
scientific materialism so let's take

754
00:31:27,419 --> 00:31:25,330
advantage of having you here and follow

755
00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:27,429
up on that question okay what do you see

756
00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:30,340
is some of the trends that are emerging

757
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:33,340
or moving with atheism the other trend I

758
00:31:37,980 --> 00:31:35,200
see is there seems to be the whole

759
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:37,990
skeptic skeptic thing has really died

760
00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:40,750
down and it's kind of not that it isn't

761
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:42,100
there anymore but it doesn't have the

762
00:31:48,419 --> 00:31:45,970
same kind of oomph that it did what are

763
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:48,429
the trends within the community of folks

764
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:52,000
that you talk to and call your country

765
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:56,530
theists I tried well I see a lot of the

766
00:32:00,390 --> 00:31:58,000
same fracturing that we're seeing just

767
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:00,400
in American society in general in

768
00:32:05,580 --> 00:32:04,090
atheism and especially 2016 just really

769
00:32:07,649 --> 00:32:05,590
ripped the country apart you know

770
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:07,659
current kinds of ways and it ripped a

771
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:10,809
theism apart as well politically we are

772
00:32:17,850 --> 00:32:13,090
more divided than we ever have been and

773
00:32:20,010 --> 00:32:17,860
I think the the break between the people

774
00:32:24,210 --> 00:32:20,020
who were disgusted with the Democrats

775
00:32:25,260 --> 00:32:24,220
and the liberal wing of politics and the

776
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,270
people were disgusted would

777
00:32:30,299 --> 00:32:27,760
the Republicans and the plutocratic side

778
00:32:33,060 --> 00:32:30,309
of politics those just when those

779
00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:33,070
divides just went hardcore over Bernie

780
00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:35,529
versus Clinton on Trump versus everybody

781
00:32:45,049 --> 00:32:42,120
else and and at the same time gender

782
00:32:47,940 --> 00:32:45,059
politics for lack of a better term

783
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:47,950
transgender rights you know

784
00:32:58,139 --> 00:32:54,880
homosexuality all these all these what

785
00:33:00,419 --> 00:32:58,149
the the the gender what am I trying to

786
00:33:04,289 --> 00:33:00,429
say here I think you said I think it's

787
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:04,299
not exactly but yeah all these things

788
00:33:08,639 --> 00:33:06,399
are dividing atheism just like really

789
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:08,649
that's surprising to me and what way are

790
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:11,890
they divisive because I would think that

791
00:33:18,570 --> 00:33:14,890
the the kind of free thought kind of

792
00:33:22,740 --> 00:33:18,580
vibed there wouldn't be trying to pick

793
00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:22,750
apart the kind of people's sexuality in

794
00:33:26,370 --> 00:33:24,220
the way that they expressed it how does

795
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:26,380
that work its way into the thing what

796
00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:29,850
what I'm seeing is that we've got

797
00:33:35,850 --> 00:33:33,000
factions for lack of a better word that

798
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,860
don't Brook any kind of opposition you

799
00:33:42,210 --> 00:33:37,360
you have to be totally on board with us

800
00:33:44,909 --> 00:33:42,220
or you're against us we've got people

801
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:44,919
who you know the mins right activists

802
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:46,960
types we have cognate of that in the

803
00:33:53,549 --> 00:33:51,120
Atheist community where they're just

804
00:33:57,690 --> 00:33:53,559
really disrespectful to women really

805
00:34:01,740 --> 00:33:57,700
disrespectful to to transgender rights

806
00:34:03,539 --> 00:34:01,750
for instance and and they're proud of it

807
00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:03,549
and they think they see themselves as

808
00:34:08,669 --> 00:34:06,700
like you know defenders of free speech

809
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:08,679
on the other hand you've got the exact

810
00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:11,919
opposite we've got the groups that are

811
00:34:17,220 --> 00:34:14,710
so entrenched in what you might call

812
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:17,230
liberal dogma that if you even question

813
00:34:21,419 --> 00:34:19,839
it if you even say well I want to get

814
00:34:25,290 --> 00:34:21,429
more information you're triggering them

815
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:25,300
you're triggering them yeah and and I

816
00:34:29,099 --> 00:34:27,040
don't want to take away from either side

817
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:29,109
you know the right to speak your mind

818
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:30,970
and the right for people to be treated

819
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:31,570
fairly

820
00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:33,490
both of those things are super important

821
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:35,470
and somehow we're still divided over

822
00:34:38,909 --> 00:34:37,330
them and I don't really have an answer

823
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:38,919
for that and I do

824
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,690
think those are specifically atheism

825
00:34:44,399 --> 00:34:42,399
problems either it's just we're kind of

826
00:34:47,549 --> 00:34:44,409
a mirror of society how do you think the

827
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:47,559
the myth assist in particular if we can

828
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:49,210
focus in on that since that's been

829
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:51,250
something that you've really focused on

830
00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:54,129
so beautifully in your books how do you

831
00:35:00,420 --> 00:34:58,150
think that plays into this some of these

832
00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:00,430
issues for the Atheist community in

833
00:35:04,049 --> 00:35:02,140
general because I think it's really I

834
00:35:06,170 --> 00:35:04,059
think it's really interesting I think

835
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:06,180
you've done a great service by just

836
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:08,890
totally focusing in and saying you know

837
00:35:15,089 --> 00:35:12,130
this is a lens through which we can look

838
00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:15,099
at these larger issues of culture and

839
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:17,470
society and why you know we have these

840
00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:19,690
our presents before they can be elected

841
00:35:23,099 --> 00:35:20,950
whether we believe that they're

842
00:35:26,910 --> 00:35:23,109
religious or not we make this kind of

843
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:26,920
religious statement and I want that to

844
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:33,520
go away so hard I mean on one hand when

845
00:35:38,609 --> 00:35:34,720
I was working with a secular Student

846
00:35:40,109 --> 00:35:38,619
Alliance the reports you know from Pew

847
00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:40,119
Research from Barna from all these

848
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:42,520
different demographic researchers are

849
00:35:47,549 --> 00:35:44,170
showing that we are becoming

850
00:35:49,410 --> 00:35:47,559
increasingly more irreligious at a

851
00:35:51,690 --> 00:35:49,420
younger and younger age I mean what I

852
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:51,700
mean by that is the the current college

853
00:35:57,329 --> 00:35:55,930
age American is far less likely to be

854
00:35:59,849 --> 00:35:57,339
religious and those numbers just keep

855
00:36:01,980 --> 00:35:59,859
going up the last I looked at it was

856
00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:01,990
about a 30 30 split I was a perfect

857
00:36:07,049 --> 00:36:04,390
third split between openly religious

858
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:07,059
openly secular and secular but or

859
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:09,910
religious but not what's the word

860
00:36:14,789 --> 00:36:12,130
spiritual but not religious see exactly

861
00:36:15,839 --> 00:36:14,799
and those those blow my mind that was

862
00:36:19,710 --> 00:36:15,849
still a couple years ago so it's

863
00:36:22,829 --> 00:36:19,720
probably even gone up more now and and

864
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:22,839
what I was excited about that for me was

865
00:36:30,089 --> 00:36:28,480
the GOP has so much power in because of

866
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:30,099
the Religious Right doing lip service to

867
00:36:33,569 --> 00:36:31,690
the religious right that they they're

868
00:36:35,660 --> 00:36:33,579
invested in this myth they're invested

869
00:36:40,049 --> 00:36:35,670
in this structure this theological

870
00:36:44,010 --> 00:36:40,059
structure to see that get worn away just

871
00:36:45,059 --> 00:36:44,020
delights me and that's where I focus my

872
00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:45,069
work because a that's what I'm

873
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:47,950
interested in and that's be you know how

874
00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:50,530
I can best you know change the world

875
00:36:52,670 --> 00:36:52,180
but I mean I don't have I'm not under

876
00:36:55,099 --> 00:36:52,680
any

877
00:36:56,870 --> 00:36:55,109
Asians that once we get rid of religion

878
00:37:01,880 --> 00:36:56,880
we're not gonna have tons of problems

879
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:01,890
left to figure out and that's that's a

880
00:37:07,069 --> 00:37:05,130
tough question to answer I

881
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:07,079
you also reminded me of something else

882
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:08,160
when you're talking about the bigger

883
00:37:12,529 --> 00:37:11,130
issues of mythis ISM and one of the

884
00:37:14,059 --> 00:37:12,539
other big surprises for me when I

885
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:14,069
started getting into this whole there

886
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:16,710
was no Jesus business I was shocked how

887
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:19,410
many X Muslims and current Buddhists

888
00:37:24,049 --> 00:37:21,839
would contact me and said you know what

889
00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:24,059
we are having these exact same arguments

890
00:37:28,579 --> 00:37:26,430
in our circles to arguing whether the

891
00:37:30,380 --> 00:37:28,589
Buddha was a real person and arguing

892
00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:30,390
whether Muhammad was a real person and

893
00:37:36,319 --> 00:37:34,470
that just blew my mind to think that

894
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:36,329
there wasn't a Muhammad until they

895
00:37:39,859 --> 00:37:37,680
started telling me the reasons why they

896
00:37:43,490 --> 00:37:39,869
thought that and I thought oh wow this

897
00:37:45,109 --> 00:37:43,500
is sounding a lot like Jesus which is

898
00:37:46,970 --> 00:37:45,119
really let's explore that for a minute

899
00:37:49,370 --> 00:37:46,980
because that's exactly what I was trying

900
00:37:52,430 --> 00:37:49,380
to put my finger on is that the the

901
00:37:54,980 --> 00:37:52,440
mythos ISM the the process if you will

902
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:54,990
yeah that you go through in your books

903
00:37:59,950 --> 00:37:57,420
both nailed and the latest Jesus

904
00:38:03,620 --> 00:37:59,960
smithing in action both of them also

905
00:38:06,490 --> 00:38:03,630
reveal a process an analytical process

906
00:38:08,809 --> 00:38:06,500
that I think extends beyond just

907
00:38:11,779 --> 00:38:08,819
religious studies but certainly there's

908
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:11,789
a lot of work well a lot of fields to be

909
00:38:17,779 --> 00:38:14,880
plowed in Jordan as well but you want to

910
00:38:19,819 --> 00:38:17,789
speak to that of the process that and

911
00:38:21,650 --> 00:38:19,829
the analytics that you went through and

912
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:21,660
you think are revealed through that that

913
00:38:27,859 --> 00:38:25,710
means I think I mentioned in the book I

914
00:38:30,289 --> 00:38:27,869
made me mention it nailed but it's if

915
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:30,299
you want to say anything about you know

916
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:32,730
just let's say Jesus for example what he

917
00:38:37,579 --> 00:38:35,609
said and what he did your first question

918
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:37,589
needs to be well what's our sources for

919
00:38:41,299 --> 00:38:39,210
that and your second question needs to

920
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:41,309
be and how reliable are these sources

921
00:38:47,420 --> 00:38:44,609
and in a nutshell when you start turning

922
00:38:52,339 --> 00:38:47,430
that question on Muhammad on Buddha on

923
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:52,349
Zoroaster on Moses on Abraham just about

924
00:38:58,190 --> 00:38:55,920
Abraham Lincoln or George I mean really

925
00:38:59,630 --> 00:38:58,200
no well I mean there's there's a

926
00:39:02,569 --> 00:38:59,640
difference though there's a difference

927
00:39:05,779 --> 00:39:02,579
because I'm I am saying that Moses

928
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:05,789
Abraham Zoroaster and food and maybe

929
00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:06,570
Muhammad

930
00:39:10,940 --> 00:39:09,270
did not exist at all . there's a

931
00:39:13,550 --> 00:39:10,950
difference between somebody like abraham

932
00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:13,560
lincoln and like the apostle paul who it

933
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:15,990
was a real person and yet there's so

934
00:39:20,450 --> 00:39:18,690
much gloss of mythos ism over them that

935
00:39:22,250 --> 00:39:20,460
it's hard to know where the real person

936
00:39:25,310 --> 00:39:22,260
starts and stops but we know there's a

937
00:39:27,050 --> 00:39:25,320
real kernel at the center of the core

938
00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:27,060
there is a real person we don't know

939
00:39:31,790 --> 00:39:29,160
that for jesus we think the opposite is

940
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:31,800
true for jesus and all these other major

941
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:34,350
religious figures so much so that it

942
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:36,480
makes me wonder if people like l ron

943
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:38,610
hubbard and joseph smith are the

944
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:41,730
exceptions to major religion starters

945
00:39:46,370 --> 00:39:44,480
because they actually were real people i

946
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:46,380
totally get your point and don't

947
00:39:50,330 --> 00:39:48,480
disagree with it but I think the

948
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:50,340
parallels are more interesting when you

949
00:39:56,030 --> 00:39:52,650
get up to that next level and you look

950
00:39:58,960 --> 00:39:56,040
at who l ron Hubbard really was and his

951
00:40:01,790 --> 00:39:58,970
deep connections thorough connections on

952
00:40:03,620 --> 00:40:01,800
questionable connections to military

953
00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:03,630
intelligence and he's out in the desert

954
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:07,140
with Parsons you know who is kind of the

955
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:10,770
mr. military intelligence and he's also

956
00:40:15,350 --> 00:40:13,440
connecting with the Crowley and you know

957
00:40:17,870 --> 00:40:15,360
three Parsons and I think he's great and

958
00:40:20,750 --> 00:40:17,880
all the rest of stuff undeniable and

959
00:40:23,740 --> 00:40:20,760
then you know we did an extensive show

960
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:23,750
on the whole connection between

961
00:40:27,310 --> 00:40:25,650
Scientology and some of the work that

962
00:40:30,350 --> 00:40:27,320
was done at Stanford Research Institute

963
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:30,360
under the Stargate program all those

964
00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:32,040
guys which you don't know about but I

965
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:33,540
mean all those guys who are doing that

966
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:36,630
psychic spying stuff not all of them but

967
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:39,330
several of the highest level people were

968
00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:42,720
deep deep into Scientology so I think at

969
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:46,560
that next level up the the process that

970
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:48,480
you've gone through and the analytics

971
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:49,710
that you do and I think you said it

972
00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:51,450
beautifully you know who are your

973
00:40:55,550 --> 00:40:53,190
sources and how reliable are those

974
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:55,560
sources is kind of step one but the

975
00:40:59,960 --> 00:40:58,050
other thing that I see you do and and do

976
00:41:02,120 --> 00:40:59,970
quite beautifully and I really have to

977
00:41:03,980 --> 00:41:02,130
pull you out on this and giving my

978
00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:03,990
compliments on Jesus missing-in-action

979
00:41:10,250 --> 00:41:07,260
what you do is something that's kind of

980
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:10,260
unique in that you turn this analysis

981
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:11,520
around because a lot of people are

982
00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:13,530
talking about talked oh yeah god there's

983
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,560
miles of books I know that but on this

984
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:18,720
topic but you did you turned it around

985
00:41:24,109 --> 00:41:20,400
you said okay

986
00:41:27,650 --> 00:41:24,119
let's look at what Christians are most

987
00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:27,660
likely to say in kind of a general sense

988
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:30,089
give people a sense than then though I'm

989
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:32,400
not expressing it very well so give

990
00:41:37,370 --> 00:41:34,650
people a sense of some of the myths that

991
00:41:38,779 --> 00:41:37,380
you go through in that book and I think

992
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:38,789
they'll understand what I mean about how

993
00:41:45,010 --> 00:41:41,359
you kind of have a different angle of

994
00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:45,020
looking at some of these questions yeah

995
00:41:48,829 --> 00:41:46,950
there's kind of two parts to that

996
00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:48,839
because there's the myths that I grew up

997
00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:51,569
with as a Christian and then there's the

998
00:41:55,819 --> 00:41:54,420
myths that that those that survived that

999
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,829
winnowing affect when I became an

1000
00:41:59,059 --> 00:41:57,599
atheist that you know of course he

1001
00:42:01,579 --> 00:41:59,069
wasn't the Son of God but I still

1002
00:42:03,289 --> 00:42:01,589
believe that a I witness wrote about him

1003
00:42:05,319 --> 00:42:03,299
I've still believed that we have good

1004
00:42:07,370 --> 00:42:05,329
evidence for him you know all these

1005
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:07,380
presuppositions right through the

1006
00:42:12,859 --> 00:42:09,930
Christian lens came to me through

1007
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:12,869
atheism including what blows me away now

1008
00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:14,880
having you know gone over a decade into

1009
00:42:21,410 --> 00:42:17,910
this is when you read the stories for

1010
00:42:24,529 --> 00:42:21,420
the first time you know without looking

1011
00:42:26,599 --> 00:42:24,539
at the Christian presuppositions in them

1012
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:26,609
when you read mark that our first Gospel

1013
00:42:31,970 --> 00:42:28,710
oldest gospel our most no-frills gospel

1014
00:42:33,890 --> 00:42:31,980
and read it as the story of a human guy

1015
00:42:36,650 --> 00:42:33,900
normal guy who because he was so

1016
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:36,660
obedient to God became adopted as his

1017
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:40,170
son and goes through this whole process

1018
00:42:43,220 --> 00:42:42,089
where he the first thing happens is he

1019
00:42:46,279 --> 00:42:43,230
goes through this testing period where

1020
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:46,289
he's tested by the devil to see if he's

1021
00:42:51,799 --> 00:42:49,650
up to the job and at the end where he's

1022
00:42:53,359 --> 00:42:51,809
at the Garden of Gethsemane really

1023
00:42:54,829 --> 00:42:53,369
scared about what's gonna happen really

1024
00:42:55,339 --> 00:42:54,839
afraid of the pain and the death he's

1025
00:42:59,569 --> 00:42:55,349
gonna suffer

1026
00:43:01,880 --> 00:42:59,579
he has no idea you know what's in store

1027
00:43:04,549 --> 00:43:01,890
for him he's not a God he's still a man

1028
00:43:06,410 --> 00:43:04,559
when you read these stories not only do

1029
00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:06,420
they not make sense from a Christian

1030
00:43:10,849 --> 00:43:08,220
standpoint it's like what can the devil

1031
00:43:13,099 --> 00:43:10,859
tempt Jesus with you know all that he

1032
00:43:15,069 --> 00:43:13,109
sees as a godling slumming on earth it

1033
00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:15,079
makes no sense to be able to tempt him

1034
00:43:20,569 --> 00:43:17,670
when you read them in and see here's a

1035
00:43:22,789 --> 00:43:20,579
guy in the garden Gethsemane who says

1036
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:22,799
I'm totally terrified I'm totally scared

1037
00:43:29,089 --> 00:43:26,640
but not my will but yours and this is a

1038
00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:29,099
flesh and blood man saying this the

1039
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:32,760
pathos is so real and so beautiful in a

1040
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:34,000
way that's not

1041
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:35,290
when you think oh he's just gonna have a

1042
00:43:39,210 --> 00:43:36,910
bad weekend and then go straight back to

1043
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:39,220
heaven you know it's interesting because

1044
00:43:44,910 --> 00:43:41,530
you kind of covered the gamut there and

1045
00:43:47,490 --> 00:43:44,920
I want to make sure people get one part

1046
00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:47,500
in there that you said that almost kind

1047
00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:49,990
of slips past and that's that in your

1048
00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:52,030
second book missing and it Jesus missing

1049
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:54,460
in action it's almost like you get to

1050
00:43:58,350 --> 00:43:56,650
this level to discussion that I think is

1051
00:43:59,730 --> 00:43:58,360
so interesting because some of that

1052
00:44:02,760 --> 00:43:59,740
stuff you're talking about if kind of

1053
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:02,770
deconstructing the the biblical text to

1054
00:44:07,650 --> 00:44:05,110
me is like the level one but the level

1055
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:07,660
two is so interesting from this analytic

1056
00:44:12,030 --> 00:44:09,460
standpoint in the way that you just

1057
00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:12,040
mentioned so people go through this

1058
00:44:15,690 --> 00:44:14,110
process right and they get into

1059
00:44:17,730 --> 00:44:15,700
Christian apologetics and they learn

1060
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:17,740
this versus that and then what you've

1061
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:19,960
done is distilled that down it's okay

1062
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:22,510
once you go through this process what

1063
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:25,440
you're likely to come up with is this

1064
00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:28,210
yeah but Jesus is still one of the most

1065
00:44:34,170 --> 00:44:31,750
well sourced persons in history and you

1066
00:44:37,380 --> 00:44:34,180
go okay you're gonna come to that point

1067
00:44:38,910 --> 00:44:37,390
and now let's deconstruct that that you

1068
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:38,920
know it doesn't really have anything to

1069
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:41,970
do with the Bible per se it's this meta

1070
00:44:48,660 --> 00:44:46,000
meta thing that you've picked yeah I'm

1071
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:48,670
delighted to hear you saying this

1072
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:50,290
because that's exactly what I wanted to

1073
00:44:54,180 --> 00:44:51,790
do with this book I wanted to break this

1074
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:54,190
down and show that hey the evidence

1075
00:44:57,390 --> 00:44:55,570
points in a completely different

1076
00:44:59,310 --> 00:44:57,400
direction let's look at that first

1077
00:45:01,170 --> 00:44:59,320
gospel of the gospel that all of them

1078
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:01,180
others were based upon let's find out

1079
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:03,040
who wrote these Gospels when they wrote

1080
00:45:07,830 --> 00:45:05,770
them you know there's so many there's so

1081
00:45:09,330 --> 00:45:07,840
many assumptions that go into oh well

1082
00:45:11,070 --> 00:45:09,340
Jesus had 12 followers and they wrote

1083
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:11,080
about him and we have their books and so

1084
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:13,510
you know la dee da da da but when you

1085
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:15,010
look at how different Christianity is

1086
00:45:19,350 --> 00:45:17,290
before those Gospels are written and how

1087
00:45:21,450 --> 00:45:19,360
different all the four Gospels are from

1088
00:45:24,810 --> 00:45:21,460
each other and yet how clearly they're

1089
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:24,820
taken from the first gospel and just you

1090
00:45:29,220 --> 00:45:27,490
know cut and pasted and gone in often

1091
00:45:30,750 --> 00:45:29,230
different directions and when you

1092
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:30,760
realize that this is just the tip of the

1093
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:32,470
iceberg these are just the four that

1094
00:45:37,050 --> 00:45:34,690
made the official cut into Scripture and

1095
00:45:39,810 --> 00:45:37,060
there's a whole world of Christian

1096
00:45:41,070 --> 00:45:39,820
writings from the second century that

1097
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:41,080
are floating out there that never made

1098
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:42,490
the cut

1099
00:45:45,540 --> 00:45:44,320
but then Christians in the second

1100
00:45:46,530 --> 00:45:45,550
century would think we weren't real

1101
00:45:47,790 --> 00:45:46,540
Christians because we didn't have all

1102
00:45:49,590 --> 00:45:47,800
these stories about you know

1103
00:45:52,850 --> 00:45:49,600
infant Jesus growing up in Smallville

1104
00:45:58,070 --> 00:45:52,860
before he became Superman you know and

1105
00:46:02,220 --> 00:45:58,080
and these different takes on Jesus and

1106
00:46:05,130 --> 00:46:02,230
and and the incompatibility of each one

1107
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:05,140
no one set out to write a fourth gospel

1108
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:07,090
no one set out to write a second gospel

1109
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:09,280
all these gospel writers were writing

1110
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:12,010
the gospel meant to be the one and only

1111
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:14,890
gospel corrected version yeah exactly

1112
00:46:19,550 --> 00:46:17,290
and it is funny because they do correct

1113
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:19,560
mistakes that mark makes in his gospel

1114
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:22,000
and then they course they go off in

1115
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:24,610
completely incompatible directions but

1116
00:46:30,450 --> 00:46:27,730
it's fascinating to see that development

1117
00:46:32,820 --> 00:46:30,460
just just that just the evolution of any

1118
00:46:36,270 --> 00:46:32,830
religion alone it's fascinating and

1119
00:46:38,430 --> 00:46:36,280
enough to debunk it as a purely human

1120
00:46:41,490 --> 00:46:38,440
thing and it's not that's not I mean

1121
00:46:43,950 --> 00:46:41,500
that is a slam it's fascinating to watch

1122
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:43,960
where Christian really came from and to

1123
00:46:49,860 --> 00:46:47,290
see the the conflicting ideas that were

1124
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:49,870
going on between early Christians and

1125
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:53,200
proto Christians and and all the things

1126
00:46:57,150 --> 00:46:55,090
that followed after that just the ways

1127
00:47:01,550 --> 00:46:57,160
they were constantly reinventing

1128
00:47:05,490 --> 00:47:01,560
themselves and even Christianity itself

1129
00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:05,500
so many of when I when I get into book 3

1130
00:47:10,590 --> 00:47:07,540
which is basically I call it the the

1131
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:10,600
Gospel according to HG Wells and do a

1132
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:12,370
time-travel expedition through the

1133
00:47:18,270 --> 00:47:15,610
origins of Christianity you see them

1134
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:18,280
taking scriptures from the Hebrew

1135
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,010
Scriptures rebooting it to correct

1136
00:47:25,950 --> 00:47:23,680
failed prophecies and reinterpret it to

1137
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:25,960
work again do you see that and taking

1138
00:47:30,110 --> 00:47:27,250
the same ones and just leap frogging

1139
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:30,120
leap frogging through history with them

1140
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:33,850
to come up with ways to make this this

1141
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:36,940
work this these apocalyptic prophecies

1142
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:39,370
work and you see Christianity coming out

1143
00:47:44,460 --> 00:47:42,130
of this effect and and the influence of

1144
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:44,470
like Hellenized Jews like Philo of

1145
00:47:49,260 --> 00:47:47,890
Alexandria and you know other religions

1146
00:47:52,350 --> 00:47:49,270
that we don't even think of having any

1147
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:52,360
bearing on on Christianity you totally

1148
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:54,130
see where they're coming from you do

1149
00:47:58,350 --> 00:47:56,410
quite a job of you know again people are

1150
00:48:00,120 --> 00:47:58,360
gonna feel a little intimidated by the

1151
00:48:01,650 --> 00:48:00,130
fact that there's three volumes out

1152
00:48:03,569 --> 00:48:01,660
there but it's it

1153
00:48:05,730 --> 00:48:03,579
very readable and it's well-organized

1154
00:48:09,299 --> 00:48:05,740
and you can kind of get to it and if you

1155
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:09,309
are interested in this history which I

1156
00:48:16,589 --> 00:48:13,210
think a lot of us should be I mean it's

1157
00:48:18,359 --> 00:48:16,599
so still linked in our culture that I

1158
00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:18,369
think we should be interested so and

1159
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:20,980
it's just fascinating it's all things

1160
00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:23,170
being equal it's fascinating to read and

1161
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:25,630
but I know that you say and so you know

1162
00:48:29,549 --> 00:48:27,520
it didn't mean to be it wasn't meant to

1163
00:48:31,170 --> 00:48:29,559
be three books at all actually it's just

1164
00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:31,180
when I was done with it I was talking to

1165
00:48:35,250 --> 00:48:33,430
my audio book engineer and saying okay

1166
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:35,260
this is gonna be kind of a big book it's

1167
00:48:40,049 --> 00:48:38,710
about almost 600 pages and it's about a

1168
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:40,059
quarter of a million just over a quarter

1169
00:48:43,859 --> 00:48:42,250
of a million words and he says wait over

1170
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:43,869
there kind of pages how are these

1171
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:45,520
eight-and-a-half by eleven pages or

1172
00:48:52,289 --> 00:48:50,559
these six by nine pages reformatted for

1173
00:48:55,289 --> 00:48:52,299
what the actual book it worked out to be

1174
00:48:57,779 --> 00:48:55,299
almost 900 pages so it's a quarter of a

1175
00:49:01,020 --> 00:48:57,789
million words that's cut man that's just

1176
00:49:03,329 --> 00:49:01,030
over a quarter million but instead I

1177
00:49:05,180 --> 00:49:03,339
have one big phone book sized book we

1178
00:49:07,890 --> 00:49:05,190
broke it down into three very readable

1179
00:49:10,769 --> 00:49:07,900
volume so yeah don't be daunted by it

1180
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:10,779
and I think the third book is the most

1181
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:15,910
fun because it is it's not talking head

1182
00:49:20,670 --> 00:49:17,650
it's it's telling a story and telling

1183
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:20,680
from what we know for sure about early

1184
00:49:27,359 --> 00:49:23,770
Christianity what some of the things you

1185
00:49:28,799 --> 00:49:27,369
know showing that evolution and I I feel

1186
00:49:30,930 --> 00:49:28,809
like I left a lot out of that book

1187
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:30,940
because some we just don't know the

1188
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:34,000
dating of of these phases of early

1189
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:35,680
Christianity we know that they happened

1190
00:49:38,910 --> 00:49:37,569
but did they happen in the 70s that they

1191
00:49:43,799 --> 00:49:38,920
happen to 90s did they happen in the

1192
00:49:45,750 --> 00:49:43,809
early second century and so I feel like

1193
00:49:48,660 --> 00:49:45,760
there's even more room to tell the story

1194
00:49:50,430 --> 00:49:48,670
there's more things to put into that

1195
00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:50,440
story but I'm really pleased with the

1196
00:49:54,329 --> 00:49:52,089
way the book is now and people seem to

1197
00:49:56,579 --> 00:49:54,339
really like it so that's that's great it

1198
00:49:58,140 --> 00:49:56,589
has a lot of great reviews so where do

1199
00:50:02,970 --> 00:49:58,150
you where do you go from here then as

1200
00:50:04,799 --> 00:50:02,980
their vol 4 and 5 horas ism well right

1201
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:04,809
now currently I'm working on a science

1202
00:50:09,539 --> 00:50:07,450
fiction trilogy with my wife and we're

1203
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:09,549
on book 2 of that so I'm contractually

1204
00:50:13,650 --> 00:50:11,890
obliged to finish that and book 3 but

1205
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:13,660
the next non-fiction book I'll be doing

1206
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:15,610
is going to be based on my

1207
00:50:19,260 --> 00:50:17,170
sex and violence talk if I don't know if

1208
00:50:21,660 --> 00:50:19,270
you've seen that on YouTube I have it's

1209
00:50:23,250 --> 00:50:21,670
my favorite talk it's it's called sexy

1210
00:50:26,460 --> 00:50:23,260
violence violent sex the weird-ass

1211
00:50:28,170 --> 00:50:26,470
morality of the Bible and it's my

1212
00:50:30,180 --> 00:50:28,180
favorite talk of all the talks I've ever

1213
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:30,190
given and that's gonna be the next book

1214
00:50:35,850 --> 00:50:34,450
in the in a series which is the complete

1215
00:50:39,420 --> 00:50:35,860
heretics guide to Western religion

1216
00:50:41,370 --> 00:50:39,430
series great great well again our guest

1217
00:50:42,570 --> 00:50:41,380
has been david Fitzgerald we've

1218
00:50:43,770 --> 00:50:42,580
mentioned a couple of his books of

1219
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:43,780
several times but we'll hit it one more

1220
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:45,010
time nailed which you might have heard

1221
00:50:49,650 --> 00:50:47,110
about quite a splash with that and his

1222
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:49,660
latest Jesus smithing in action and as

1223
00:50:55,020 --> 00:50:52,090
you just heard we got more books to look

1224
00:50:56,930 --> 00:50:55,030
for from Dave in the future so it's been

1225
00:50:59,070 --> 00:50:56,940
great pleasure having you on the show

1226
00:51:01,080 --> 00:50:59,080
thanks again so much for joining right

1227
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:01,090
back at you Alex thanks so much has been

1228
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:03,490
awesome talking to you thanks again to

1229
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:05,440
david Fitzgerald for joining me today on

1230
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:07,330
skeptic oh the one question I guess I

1231
00:51:13,050 --> 00:51:10,000
tee up from this interview has to do

1232
00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:13,060
with the cult question I don't think the

1233
00:51:18,330 --> 00:51:15,040
cultish aspect of mainstream

1234
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:18,340
Christianity gets enough attention it's

1235
00:51:22,260 --> 00:51:20,290
as if we talked about cult and then we

1236
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:22,270
talk about Christianity as if there's

1237
00:51:29,370 --> 00:51:25,330
this huge dividing line if there is any

1238
00:51:31,050 --> 00:51:29,380
dividing line it's certainly fuzzy isn't

1239
00:51:34,250 --> 00:51:31,060
a lot more fuzzy than we'd like to

1240
00:51:37,890 --> 00:51:34,260
pretend so what do you think is

1241
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:37,900
Christianity a cult so I'd love to hear

1242
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:39,250
your thoughts on that of course the

1243
00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:41,290
place to do it is through the skeptic Co

1244
00:51:49,460 --> 00:51:47,260
website at ske pti k o com from there

1245
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:49,470
you can also download any of our over

1246
00:51:54,540 --> 00:51:53,170
350 previous episodes or jump on over to

1247
00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:54,550
the forum to join the discussion over

1248
00:52:00,270 --> 00:51:57,190
there or drop me a note or an email

1249
00:52:02,670 --> 00:52:00,280
whatever way you find best to connect

1250
00:52:05,580 --> 00:52:02,680
with me and other people who are

1251
00:52:07,650 --> 00:52:05,590
listening to this show so I do have some

1252
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:07,660
interesting shows coming up I'm also

1253
00:52:11,970 --> 00:52:09,610
slowing down a little bit for the summer

1254
00:52:14,970 --> 00:52:11,980
and kind of in general I'd like to get

1255
00:52:17,550 --> 00:52:14,980
back to the once every two weeks qej

1256
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:17,560
wool and see what other things that

1257
00:52:22,260 --> 00:52:20,110
opens up in my life so that's my

1258
00:52:25,470 --> 00:52:22,270
direction at least temporarily for the

1259
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:25,480
show but I do as always appreciate your

1260
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:27,520
listening appreciate so many of the

1261
00:52:31,770 --> 00:52:28,690
awesome

1262
00:52:33,809 --> 00:52:31,780
emails and letters that I get from folks

1263
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:33,819
who are appreciative of the show and

1264
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:36,910
enjoy connecting with these ideas it's

1265
00:52:41,849 --> 00:52:38,920
really such an amazing thing that we can

1266
00:52:42,569 --> 00:52:41,859
connect in that way so so that's just

1267
00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:42,579
wonderful

1268
00:52:48,809 --> 00:52:44,710
and I hope it continues for a long long

1269
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:48,819
time until next time take care and bye